Survival of fittest...or survival of the biggest?

By StoweMobile Posted June 8, 2009 18:22:50

I hope this hasn't been discussed too in depth before, but, I find one of the most annoying things about alot of TBS games is that...simply having the most cities/provinces means you are automatically the most powerful. Civ4 attempted to address this, as the more cities you had, the more expensive they were to maintain...This was alrighty, though at some point that game start almost punishing you for having too many cities, which it's good either.

--What I would like to know is, will it be possible to not only survive, but also remain competitive in this game even if you don't have alot of territory. Personally I hope that the cost to research technology/spells is scaled based on how many cities you have...that way even small nations can keep up in the tech race, and remain an important force in the world. Larger nations would still be able to produce more, and field larger armies. As it has been said that founding new cities cost essence, it would make since that this game would not force you to have alot of cities to be a powerful country...And how you run your faction should be alot more important than just how big it is...Your thoughts?

0 Karma 77 Replies 2 Referrals

Tridus

reply 22

Quoting GW Swicord, reply 21
That's why I've become interested in the idea of champions as alternate 'production points' for things like research. Especially for something like magic, there's all manner of precedents for great minds working with few or no material supports like libraries. A champion researcher posted to a mages' guild would boost their output, but she should still have a basic output of her even if you just let her hang in a cave and meditate for a season or three.

That could solve that problem, yeah. But there's magic nodes you can capture. Who guards those?

I just don't see the game working in the long term with "going Gandalf" as a viable option. "Going Sauron" would make more sense, because while Sauron was in there being a badass at the front of his army, he actually owned territory and had an army.

So to me, the distinction is between someone like Sauron who hordes his power and leads his army personally, or something like an Age of Wonders 2 wizard who spreads his power around and sits in a tower lobbing spells from a safe distance (while imbuing Champions to go into the field).

now that sounds fair enough. after all, even as a uber character you probably have to have some kind of infrastructure and territory. and defending it does not end with defense or your town(s), you also have to protect resource points, roads, maybe important strategic points, etc.

a fine balance indeed that we have here. good that beta is so long, that should give time to get it about right.

Since cities will take essence to found, why does this thread exist?

More cities, more terrain to protect means a larger army. More improvements to purchase, and newly founded cities aren't going to be making money while they upgrade infrastructure to acceptable levels.

In return for your essence, which will weaken you, you're taking a short term hit to productivity, in return for a long term advantage. Why would you want to remove the advantage?

Guy passes on being an army slaying god of war, gets a shitload of cities, and can't progress in technology faster than the army slaying god of war playing shitkicker with his troops...

This thread should exist a month from now as an after the fact balance discussion regarding the wieght of various choices in essence use.

psychoak

reply 2

Since cities will take essence to found, why does this thread exist?

More cities, more terrain to protect means a larger army. More improvements to purchase, and newly founded cities aren't going to be making money while they upgrade infrastructure to acceptable levels.

In return for your essence, which will weaken you, you're taking a short term hit to productivity, in return for a long term advantage. Why would you want to remove the advantage?

Guy passes on being an army slaying god of war, gets a shitload of cities, and can't progress in technology faster than the army slaying god of war playing shitkicker with his troops...

This thread should exist a month from now as an after the fact balance discussion regarding the wieght of various choices in essence use.

Threadwinner. Although I think a lot of times people discuss topics just because they are going so batshit crazy waiting to get their hands on it. It's like phone sex - it's not what you REALLY want, but it does give a degree of satisfaction.

Although I think a lot of times people discuss topics just because they are going so batshit crazy waiting to get their hands on it. It's like phone sex - it's not what you REALLY want, but it does give a degree of satisfaction.

And you win the forum.

[e digicons]:fox:[/e]

psychoak

reply 2

... This thread should exist a month from now as an after the fact balance discussion regarding the wieght of various choices in essence use.

psychoak often makes me think words that are not OK for the underage market. Truth can be a real bitch.

Yeah but if we didn't speculate what would we have to talk about?

Ashain

reply 6

Yeah but if we didn't speculate what would we have to talk about?

I think we're getting to the point where we've speculated on almost everything. That's why our threads keep degenerating.

That and Kitkun. And Annatar.

So, are we speculating about degeneration, degeneratively speculating, or speculatively degenerating?

That and Kitkun. And Annatar.

And bears.

[e digicons]:fox:[/e]

Yes, let's not forget bears.

Actually, on second though, let's all forget the bears for a while.

Scoutdog

reply 10

Yes, let's not forget bears.

Actually, on second though, let's all forget the bears for a while.

Indeed. I am getting a bit tired of the bear theme - it was funny for a while, now I hope they put bear mounts in and make them were those silly tutus and foofy collars and maybe even a clown hat....[e digicons]|-)[/e]

Oh yee latecomers of little faith.

Denryu

reply 11

Indeed. I am getting a bit tired of the bear theme - it was funny for a while, now I hope they put bear mounts in and make them were those silly tutus and foofy collars and maybe even a clown hat....

You can always mod those in.[e digicons]

[/e]

psychoak often makes me think words that are not OK for the underage market. Truth can be a real bitch.

Are you sure it's not just an environmental effect from my own verbally abusive posting?

I've seen MUCH worse. Compared to some of the people in my study hall, you sound like Mother Teresa.

That's because I moderate my own posts before submittal...

psychoak

reply 16

That's because I moderate my own posts before submittal...

Now there's a surprise.

[e digicons]:fox:[/e]

I'm hurt, really!

I may not give a shit about being politically correct, but I don't go out of my way to avoid it either. When something seems like I should probably have left it out, I get rid of it. It comes without thinking, and then I get rid of some of it after thinking about it.

Of course, this also means that, aside from the rare thing that gets through, I consider all my posts to be appropriate and deserved.

When something seems like I should probably have left it out, I get rid of it. It comes without thinking, and then I get rid of some of it after thinking about it.

I know exactly what you mean. There's a lot of thing I've typed up that never made it too the forums.

For example, I'm leaving one sentence out of this post and adding this one.

[e digicons]:fox:[/e]

I don't mean to beat a dead hourse, but for hording essence to be a fesible strategy in the game, there will have to be a way for smaller nations to remain competitive in technology + spell research. Other wise Domination will be the main form of play almost every game...

If hording essence means you're an army raping god of war, that is a feasible strategy. Guy with 20 cities goes oh shit, it's the enemy channeler, ahh! Poof, city dissappears. You'd have an overwhelming advantage where ever the blighter was at. My guess is that you'd have to play more offensively if you really went small, but you'd still have a titanic force at your disposal that your opponent had to match with overwhelming numbers.

StoweMobile

reply 20

That's why I'm increasingly fond of the idea of making at least magical research more unit-centered (channeler and champions as producers) than building-centered--buildings as bonuses for a unit in residence, with maybe a small output on their own, maybe none.

One thing that I thought of was "self-increasing divergence": the more you go Gandalf, the more your champions and heroes effect your research. The more you go Sauron, the more important buildings become. Plus, as opposed to champion-centric research, it might be nice to learn spells via dungeoneering: the ancients probably built some BIG libraries.....

Scoutdog

reply 23

it might be nice to learn spells via dungeoneering: the ancients probably built some BIG libraries.....

THIS

I assumed that the power of the channeler would be like Master of Magic. Which means that a essence hoarder can devastate enemies with Fireballs and stuff but so can any other channeler who knows the spells and got sufficient casting ability (In Age of Wonders you had to research "Casting Specialist 1-5" to have more mana to use every turn).

And I don't know if it's a good thing if someone can neglect the citybuilding and just boost up heroes and powerup his spellcasting....it will become harder to balance if there's different ways to play. If everybody have to atleast build some cities then the game will be easier to balance because of the similarities.

More importantly though, like someone said it's much easier to go with magic power and a few heroes instead of multiple cities (like the difference between a assassin and a general in Demigod perhaps).

Also, one of the two playstyles WILL be more powerful on maps with a certain distance between startlocations and that advantage will only grow the bigger the map....

I for sure wouldn't want to balance THAT mess [e digicons]:S[/e]